Kenneth, this lands close to home. I spent years in Nazarene pastoral ministry and knew that apologetics ecosystem from the inside. I taught it and believed in it — and watched it fail to hold people. Not because the arguments were bad, but because arguments were being asked to do work that only the Liturgy can do.
What finally broke through wasn’t a counter-argument. It was the Divine Liturgy — standing in a place where no one was trying to prove anything, and yet everything was being shown. Your description of your priest greeting that visitor with a kiss on the head rings completely true. That’s the theology made visible you’re talking about and it’s the kind of visible love of Christ I need to grow in.
Thank you for naming what so many of us converts have felt: we weren’t looking for better reasons. We were looking for healing.
From a weary Protestant, your words are a healing balm. I find myself weeping as I read, not out of sadness, but longing and comfort. I was not raised in the church, so I did not enter into following Jesus with a load of evangelical baggage. That has felt like both a blessing and a curse at times. I don't quite fit, yet I also know that for me, converting is not the answer. Not because I don't long for that ancient stability and focus on loving God and neighbor, but because I feel called to infuse it into the lives of my Protestant sisters and brothers. It's a slow work, as the things of God are, so I'm grateful to have found your writing to extend a holy kiss from a distance. Peace be with you.
Dear Kenneth, your writings have inspired me and the warmth of your parish and priest touched me! Saint Porphyrios “wounded by love” is my most treasured Orthodox book. How blessed you are and how blessed am I to have a loving priest and parish here at Holy Trinity in Tasmania. God bless you and your writing brother.
I was really into the apologetics world when I was in high school. I actually read a lot of texts of other religions, originally in the hope of finding all the stuff wrong with them. And yeah, it did of course show me how stark my disagreements could be. But I ended up finding myself reading more because I wanted to understand the beliefs and those who followed them better. Rather than arguments, I had conversations with people. When I, ironically, fell out of evangelicalism, it was in part things that I had come to appreciate in other traditions that led me to the form of Christianity I now practice. I have known people who came to Christ since that time, and not a single one of them ever told me I argued them into it. What many did say was, “I remember you always being willing to talk to people, and taking them seriously, even though you were very clearly Christian. That made an impression.” Turns out love and respect go further than arguments, it would seem.
On a side note, I have even more respect for you knowing you’re in the Carolinas! My mom is from South Carolina and I’ve lived in the broader Charlotte area most of my life.
Thank you for this work Kenneth, but I have a question. How do you feel about the expression of love from the Mainline groups (ex Baptists)? You've often pointed out problems with evangelicals, but the Mainliners put a lot of emphasis on love, even to the point of challenging conventional interpretations of Scripture.
With that in mind, I think we can see how our love, to be Christ-like, should be informed and mature.
I think that historically the mainline, especially the original reformers like Calvin and Luther, would be shocked to see where Evangelicalism went circa the 19th century and beyond. They retained a lot of elements of ancient Christianity , and there is much to be admired by them. while I wouldn’t endorse everything they taught or think, I have a lot of respect for much of their work.
I so agree, we need the love and family the church should provide. It is so hard to find, especially if you've moved into a new community. I am completely mobility impaired although I've not really considered myself that, and that leaves me on the outside in itself. Especially in most evangelical churches that often believe in healing, but...
This subject of love for others as a focus leads us into the plan God has for His creation. It is why I look forward to your writings. Our transformation through our faith in Christ, is necessary for us, the church, to further His Kingdom on earth. Love expressed by us to others allows God to touch the hearts of those around us. It also is used by God to display His manifold wisdom to the rulers, authorities, and principalities, those powers of darkness over the earth who bring chaos and distruction, and division. Our behavior is used by God to increase His Kingdom, which can only be perceived using spiritual discernment, something the world cannot grasp. God gives the ministry of reconciliation to every believer. As we are transformed to become more like Christ, we demonstrate His love and wisdom through the fruits of the Spirit birthed in us. We enter into His plan for His creation. What an honor! As followers of Christ we shall be known by the love we have for one another. It is the foundation of our being and is universally understood. Thank you Kenneth for continuing to remind us the expression of love in our lives. It is the central theme of the Gospel and has eternal consequences.
A) If a king comments before his servants "let us make" 🤣 why would anyone think he was refering to one of the other multiple personalities of himself as opposed to making a comment to his royal cort?!?
Elohim said "let us", but most dont understand that elohim is NOT the name of god. It is a classifycation of life no different then PLANT life; ANIMAL life; HUMAN life; ELOHIM life
B) It would NOT be unusuall for the boss man to come down stairs from his lofty perch to the employees on the production floor to showdemonstrate to said employees how to properly fill out a request form to HIMSELF!?!
C) Of course Jesus was praying to himself what other God would he be praying to?!? How many gods are there for THE ONE God to talk or pray to??? So Jesus is either praying to himself so as to be the human example for men to behave Or God is praying to anotjer God that is both himself and yet not himself 🤣🤡🌏🤣
D)The subserviant God....The fact that Christ belongs to God and is also subservient to the father but yet co-equal with God. (and for other considerations looked at latter) gives us a “big clue” that the “nature” of father and son can ONLY be coherently and consistently understood as the parts of the same person. (In the same way that your head is greater then your right arm and some members of a body are “greater” then others 1Cor 12:17 same principle. Your right arm is with you and it is you, it can only know & comunicate what your head gives it & yet is is equal to you and not a different person!?!)
Rom 1:20. For the invisible things......are CLEARLY SEEN, being UNDERSTOOD by the things that are made, EVEN HIS eternal power and GODHEAD;...........WITHOUT EXCUSE:
..This Trinitarian idea of God head is nowhere to be seen certainly not clearly by “the things which are made such that they are without excuse” (no, it is incomprehensible?!?).
This is the typical Trinitarian mindset, confusion and irrational doctrines make perfect sense while ordinary and obvious explanations will seem confusing and difficult to grasp or comprehend.
Appealing to attributes of God such as wisdom and love is no different then appealing to appendages such as head and right arm except one of those is how the scriptures describe God and the other is not!?! But both of those would still only qualify for one person as the word “person” is normally defined!
They will say comments similar to the following: “Your view of "person" is far too wrapped up in modern conceptions of personhood. THE TYPE OF "PERSON-NESS" THAT THE MEMBERS OF THE TRINITY HAS IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THEN WHAT HUMAN BEINGS HAVE“ after admitting and trying to make that argument with then spend the rest of any discussion trying to convenience everyone why it must in fact really be three separate and or different persons as the world “person” is normally used!? Other such comments are employed as in “Jesus was not a ventriloquist at his baptism, as if that were the alternative needed (to explain one person) or proves anything ?!? It should also be pointed out that Trinitarians also (must; and even admit) ascribe three different minds (in different locations) in this god of theirs (for the same exact reasons/arguments they insist must be different persons) and yet still with a strait face claim, even insist, that those three different god minds in three different bodies and different locations is “NOT” three different gods!?!
That is why the scriptures use the allusions to the head of God and the right hand of God because that is the only way to understand the nature of God correctly or logically. After all man is made in the image of God; Ironically, some attempt to point to several favorite passages to try to show that there are more then one person is present in the person of God; I say ironically, because they actually point and even help prove that there is in fact only one person of God present and that there is no need or demand for any plurality of persons.
I read and watch Orthodox lay people and priests. I appreciate much of what they share and try to from it. I just finished reading through the St James liturgy to try to get a better understanding of early church theology.
I don't understand why the Orthodox spend so much energy criticizing Evangelicalism.
I don’t think it’s a criticism - it’s rather using the language that our culture speaks and understands. Agree that in modern contexts where men often scream past each other, dialogue and conversation are at risk of being perceived as criticism. But it’s not criticism.
In the United States, “basic Christianity” is often understood as a “no-need-to-explain-further” reality that it is expressed in evangelical Protestantism. That approach is incorrect, though.
I’d imagine that some Orthodox writers simply point out those misconceptions using language that American protestants understand. “Basic Christianity” is Jesus’s sacramental, liturgical church that He established when He sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
Kenneth, this lands close to home. I spent years in Nazarene pastoral ministry and knew that apologetics ecosystem from the inside. I taught it and believed in it — and watched it fail to hold people. Not because the arguments were bad, but because arguments were being asked to do work that only the Liturgy can do.
What finally broke through wasn’t a counter-argument. It was the Divine Liturgy — standing in a place where no one was trying to prove anything, and yet everything was being shown. Your description of your priest greeting that visitor with a kiss on the head rings completely true. That’s the theology made visible you’re talking about and it’s the kind of visible love of Christ I need to grow in.
Thank you for naming what so many of us converts have felt: we weren’t looking for better reasons. We were looking for healing.
From a weary Protestant, your words are a healing balm. I find myself weeping as I read, not out of sadness, but longing and comfort. I was not raised in the church, so I did not enter into following Jesus with a load of evangelical baggage. That has felt like both a blessing and a curse at times. I don't quite fit, yet I also know that for me, converting is not the answer. Not because I don't long for that ancient stability and focus on loving God and neighbor, but because I feel called to infuse it into the lives of my Protestant sisters and brothers. It's a slow work, as the things of God are, so I'm grateful to have found your writing to extend a holy kiss from a distance. Peace be with you.
Dear Kenneth, your writings have inspired me and the warmth of your parish and priest touched me! Saint Porphyrios “wounded by love” is my most treasured Orthodox book. How blessed you are and how blessed am I to have a loving priest and parish here at Holy Trinity in Tasmania. God bless you and your writing brother.
I was really into the apologetics world when I was in high school. I actually read a lot of texts of other religions, originally in the hope of finding all the stuff wrong with them. And yeah, it did of course show me how stark my disagreements could be. But I ended up finding myself reading more because I wanted to understand the beliefs and those who followed them better. Rather than arguments, I had conversations with people. When I, ironically, fell out of evangelicalism, it was in part things that I had come to appreciate in other traditions that led me to the form of Christianity I now practice. I have known people who came to Christ since that time, and not a single one of them ever told me I argued them into it. What many did say was, “I remember you always being willing to talk to people, and taking them seriously, even though you were very clearly Christian. That made an impression.” Turns out love and respect go further than arguments, it would seem.
On a side note, I have even more respect for you knowing you’re in the Carolinas! My mom is from South Carolina and I’ve lived in the broader Charlotte area most of my life.
Thank you for this work Kenneth, but I have a question. How do you feel about the expression of love from the Mainline groups (ex Baptists)? You've often pointed out problems with evangelicals, but the Mainliners put a lot of emphasis on love, even to the point of challenging conventional interpretations of Scripture.
With that in mind, I think we can see how our love, to be Christ-like, should be informed and mature.
I think that historically the mainline, especially the original reformers like Calvin and Luther, would be shocked to see where Evangelicalism went circa the 19th century and beyond. They retained a lot of elements of ancient Christianity , and there is much to be admired by them. while I wouldn’t endorse everything they taught or think, I have a lot of respect for much of their work.
I so agree, we need the love and family the church should provide. It is so hard to find, especially if you've moved into a new community. I am completely mobility impaired although I've not really considered myself that, and that leaves me on the outside in itself. Especially in most evangelical churches that often believe in healing, but...
I had to marry someone who wasn't very touchy-feely to realize how much I really appreciated touch.
Now I find myself giving hugs. Especially when I run out of things to say.
Not many people care about my thoughts on Human Anthropology and how it applies to this or that, and what it means for whatever issue they're facing.
Often times it's better to just shut up and hug them.
This subject of love for others as a focus leads us into the plan God has for His creation. It is why I look forward to your writings. Our transformation through our faith in Christ, is necessary for us, the church, to further His Kingdom on earth. Love expressed by us to others allows God to touch the hearts of those around us. It also is used by God to display His manifold wisdom to the rulers, authorities, and principalities, those powers of darkness over the earth who bring chaos and distruction, and division. Our behavior is used by God to increase His Kingdom, which can only be perceived using spiritual discernment, something the world cannot grasp. God gives the ministry of reconciliation to every believer. As we are transformed to become more like Christ, we demonstrate His love and wisdom through the fruits of the Spirit birthed in us. We enter into His plan for His creation. What an honor! As followers of Christ we shall be known by the love we have for one another. It is the foundation of our being and is universally understood. Thank you Kenneth for continuing to remind us the expression of love in our lives. It is the central theme of the Gospel and has eternal consequences.
THE TRINITY HERESY PART 1
A) If a king comments before his servants "let us make" 🤣 why would anyone think he was refering to one of the other multiple personalities of himself as opposed to making a comment to his royal cort?!?
Elohim said "let us", but most dont understand that elohim is NOT the name of god. It is a classifycation of life no different then PLANT life; ANIMAL life; HUMAN life; ELOHIM life
B) It would NOT be unusuall for the boss man to come down stairs from his lofty perch to the employees on the production floor to showdemonstrate to said employees how to properly fill out a request form to HIMSELF!?!
C) Of course Jesus was praying to himself what other God would he be praying to?!? How many gods are there for THE ONE God to talk or pray to??? So Jesus is either praying to himself so as to be the human example for men to behave Or God is praying to anotjer God that is both himself and yet not himself 🤣🤡🌏🤣
D)The subserviant God....The fact that Christ belongs to God and is also subservient to the father but yet co-equal with God. (and for other considerations looked at latter) gives us a “big clue” that the “nature” of father and son can ONLY be coherently and consistently understood as the parts of the same person. (In the same way that your head is greater then your right arm and some members of a body are “greater” then others 1Cor 12:17 same principle. Your right arm is with you and it is you, it can only know & comunicate what your head gives it & yet is is equal to you and not a different person!?!)
Rom 1:20. For the invisible things......are CLEARLY SEEN, being UNDERSTOOD by the things that are made, EVEN HIS eternal power and GODHEAD;...........WITHOUT EXCUSE:
..This Trinitarian idea of God head is nowhere to be seen certainly not clearly by “the things which are made such that they are without excuse” (no, it is incomprehensible?!?).
This is the typical Trinitarian mindset, confusion and irrational doctrines make perfect sense while ordinary and obvious explanations will seem confusing and difficult to grasp or comprehend.
Appealing to attributes of God such as wisdom and love is no different then appealing to appendages such as head and right arm except one of those is how the scriptures describe God and the other is not!?! But both of those would still only qualify for one person as the word “person” is normally defined!
They will say comments similar to the following: “Your view of "person" is far too wrapped up in modern conceptions of personhood. THE TYPE OF "PERSON-NESS" THAT THE MEMBERS OF THE TRINITY HAS IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THEN WHAT HUMAN BEINGS HAVE“ after admitting and trying to make that argument with then spend the rest of any discussion trying to convenience everyone why it must in fact really be three separate and or different persons as the world “person” is normally used!? Other such comments are employed as in “Jesus was not a ventriloquist at his baptism, as if that were the alternative needed (to explain one person) or proves anything ?!? It should also be pointed out that Trinitarians also (must; and even admit) ascribe three different minds (in different locations) in this god of theirs (for the same exact reasons/arguments they insist must be different persons) and yet still with a strait face claim, even insist, that those three different god minds in three different bodies and different locations is “NOT” three different gods!?!
That is why the scriptures use the allusions to the head of God and the right hand of God because that is the only way to understand the nature of God correctly or logically. After all man is made in the image of God; Ironically, some attempt to point to several favorite passages to try to show that there are more then one person is present in the person of God; I say ironically, because they actually point and even help prove that there is in fact only one person of God present and that there is no need or demand for any plurality of persons.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/305367608/The-Trinity-Heresy
https://www.academia.edu/23463667/THE_TRINITY_HERESY
MODALISIM IS THE FAITH FOOLS!!
20pg "clifts notes version
https://www.scribd.com/document/844419833/20-Page-Summary-PDF-1
https://www.academia.edu/126398900/20_Page_summary_of_THE_TRINITY_HERESY
I read and watch Orthodox lay people and priests. I appreciate much of what they share and try to from it. I just finished reading through the St James liturgy to try to get a better understanding of early church theology.
I don't understand why the Orthodox spend so much energy criticizing Evangelicalism.
I don’t think it’s a criticism - it’s rather using the language that our culture speaks and understands. Agree that in modern contexts where men often scream past each other, dialogue and conversation are at risk of being perceived as criticism. But it’s not criticism.
In the United States, “basic Christianity” is often understood as a “no-need-to-explain-further” reality that it is expressed in evangelical Protestantism. That approach is incorrect, though.
I’d imagine that some Orthodox writers simply point out those misconceptions using language that American protestants understand. “Basic Christianity” is Jesus’s sacramental, liturgical church that He established when He sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
Christ is risen !